In case you’ve been affected by AI Overviews, site visitors drops, or really feel unsure about website positioning’s future, then this episode is for you.
Search Engine Journal’s Editor-in-Chief Katie Morton sits down with development advisor and writer of “Progress Memo,” Kevin Indig, to unpack the outcomes of his newest AI Overviews examine.
On this 35-minute episode, they focus on the way it impacts search, website positioning, and model advertising and marketing in 2025.
Editor’s word: The next transcript has been edited frivolously for readability, brevity, and adherence to our editorial tips.
What AI Overviews Imply For Search, website positioning & Model Belief
Katie Morton: Hello, all people. It’s I, Katie Morton. I’m the editor-in-chief of Search Engine Journal, and right this moment I’m sitting down with Kevin Indig, who’s a development advisor to fast-growing tech corporations and the writer of “Progress Memo,” a unbelievable e-newsletter.
We syndicate it right here on Search Engine Journal, however join it immediately, too, as a result of he has content material unique to subscribers. It’s stuffed with sensible insights each marketer must know.
Kevin, thanks for making the time right this moment. The examine was analyzed in March-April 2025 and printed in Might. We’ve had time to mirror, and right this moment we’ll unpack the important thing takeaways.
We’ll begin with the nuts and bolts of the examine’s background, so listeners perceive the context, after which transcend the information to discover how entrepreneurs and firms, particularly these annoyed by Google, AI Overviews, or site visitors drops, can reply.
So, Kevin, are you able to summarize the examine and share the primary takeaways?
Kevin Indig: Thanks for having me on, Katie. It’s nice to be right here with you.
What The AI Overview Research Actually Reveals
Kevin: The examine got here from a need to deeply perceive, from a qualitative perspective, how on a regular basis customers work together with AI Overviews.
In 2024, everybody was eyeing AI Overviews with curiosity, however site visitors impression wasn’t vital but. Then, at first of 2025, all the pieces modified. It turned a “holy cow” second – this was actual and severe.
We requested 70 individuals within the U.S., throughout completely different age teams, to unravel eight duties that lined dominant person intents: Discovering a tax accountant, researching medical questions, buying, and many others.
We deliberately included queries that confirmed AI Overviews however didn’t inform individuals to work together with them – we wished unbiased conduct.
So, in a nutshell, the three most poignant outcomes are:
1. Traditional Natural Outcomes Nonetheless Carry Weight
To begin with – and that is no shock – clicks are actually uncommon when folks see AI Overviews. That’s gotten via to everybody by now.
And but, on the similar time, basic natural outcomes nonetheless have the vast majority of impression on folks’s completion of person journeys.
Let me untangle that for a second: What we discovered is that folks get their remaining reply – the ultimate piece of data they have been got down to get – 80% of the time from basic natural outcomes. Not from AI Overviews, in order that was encouraging.
2. Excessive-High quality Clicks Occur In Excessive-Belief Moments
Clicks are taking place, however folks nonetheless click on. And every of these clicks has a lot, a lot greater high quality than, say, in 2024 or earlier than.
As a result of these clicks are to confirm whether or not the outcomes are correct, to get human enter from platforms like Reddit or YouTube, and to extend confidence in whether or not what the AI is saying is true.
And for us, which means it’s vital to be current in these high-trust, high-risk moments. I can unpack that somewhat extra…
3. Viewers Age Shapes AI Engagement
The third end result I discovered very fascinating is that there actually is an age distinction right here. [Younger users] are far more receptive to AI solutions. They’re far more lively on Reddit and YouTube. Whereas folks of a better age will typically simply skip the AI solutions as a result of they don’t belief them.
You need to know who you’re speaking to, who your target market is. Ideally, what the age group is of your ICP or your target market, after which make website positioning choices accordingly.
Why Branding Issues Extra Than Ever
Katie: Thanks for that. What I’d love to speak about subsequent is branding.
I really feel like massive manufacturers are somewhat safer with current developments. If you have already got recognition, you’re in a greater spot. However for those who’re a tiny model with no recognition, you’re actually behind the eight ball.
For the uninitiated or the uninformed, [you might wonder], why is that essential? It’s about belief.
When somebody sees your model in an AI Overview, recognition boosts belief. In the event that they click on on an AI Overview or scroll to seek out natural outcomes, they’re extra prone to belief and click on a reputation they know. A powerful model will increase your probabilities.
However even sturdy manufacturers can lose recognition. Mordy Oberstein and I speak about this loads – he’s doing branding work now. Status is all the pieces.
Mordy makes use of the instance of Nike, which was as soon as ubiquitous, however has misplaced some relevance. Youthful generations aren’t as loyal or conscious of the swoosh anymore.
So, for large manufacturers, sustaining confidence and belief is vital. For small or new manufacturers, or manufacturers that by no means had sturdy recognition, can they nonetheless acquire traction?
Kevin: You may get traction … nevertheless it’s actually difficult.
One problem is that a number of groups must work collectively: product, innovation, advertising and marketing, assist, provide chain. website positioning doesn’t management all these variables. It’s all the time been a self-discipline of suggestions, counting on others to behave.
So, you all the time have been counting on different groups, and that has 10x’d now with AI. As a result of, as you stated, model, model notion, and sentiment are so vital to the way you seem in search outcomes or solutions.
And it goes again to so many various contact factors with a model, not simply the brand that folks see or the promoting, but in addition the product that they use, retention, all that form of stuff.
SEOs want to point out different departments the place points lie, utilizing click-through charges, model search quantity, and engagement metrics as indicators. They need to talk the story and rally different groups.
However that always runs into price issues. Asking for a brand new name middle to enhance assist has massive price range implications, and quantifying ROI is hard.
So, SEOs should push past the Google channel and affect firm technique. It’s extremely tough to affect.
Katie: Completely. And talking of website positioning being declared “lifeless,” I’ve heard that each few years in my 20 years within the business, however that is the primary time I’ve felt a reputable risk.
website positioning won’t ever really die. It’s discovery, and discovery is all the time wanted, nevertheless it’s undoubtedly altering. It was essentially the most cost-effective advertising and marketing channel. Now, ROI is much less sure, and budgets are contracting.
However there’s a silver lining. Lots of low-quality, common content material meant simply to drive mass web page views is getting weeded out.
For instance, we used to rank for “What’s E-E-A-T?” and get tons of unqualified site visitors. With AI Overviews answering these common queries now, site visitors is down, however the remaining site visitors is way extra certified. That’s higher for conversions.
It’s laborious for publishers who relied on brute-force clicks. However for us, shifting away from programmatic and towards advertisers aligned with our viewers, like SaaS, has labored. The business is altering massively.
So, what do you suppose is subsequent for website positioning and advertising and marketing?
The New Function Of website positioning In A Altering Panorama
Kevin: You hit it on the top. website positioning is contracting; budgets are down, management confidence is down, and when folks depart, their roles typically aren’t changed. website positioning has died and reinvented itself many occasions.
I see that we’re utilizing a whole lot of website positioning additionally for AI visibility optimization. I do count on that to vary, however nevertheless you flip it, we’re in a transition interval. And the issue with transition durations is that they’re laborious to navigate. You lose orientation, and it’s painful.
As soon as you compromise at a brand new baseline, you simply run round somewhat headless, and also you attempt to discover your approach. After which slowly, issues form of begin to settle again in.
And so I’m very assured that no matter we’re going to name this, we’re going to settle into a brand new baseline. It would take some time. This isn’t going to cease within the subsequent six months – in all probability not twelve months. Nevertheless it’s laborious to foretell when.
Based mostly on how shortly fashions enhance and the way shortly people adapt to them, that may determine the tempo of this transition.
Nevertheless, there are additionally many alternatives in transitions. You possibly can reinvent your self. And that’s the place, as SEOs, we’d lose the website positioning price range, however possibly we acquire some model price range, which has been a lot, a lot greater previously.
You see corporations spending tens of millions of {dollars} for multi-year contracts for a tiny emblem that sits someplace on a Formulation 1 automobile. These items occur on a regular basis.
There’s a giant alternative for website positioning to detach from that undesirable profiling as a efficiency channel – detach ourselves from being a efficiency channel, and change into far more of a model channel, affect channel, presence channel – no matter you need to name it.
New metrics. New levers. Deeply rooted in website positioning. And efficient and highly effective, however form of in a brand new design, proper? Like website positioning 2.0. No matter you need to name it.
And I do agree with you. I additionally see individuals who’ve been within the sport for a very long time stepping out. Completely get that. I see younger folks shedding a little bit of confidence.
However I may even say that I would really like (however wouldn’t admit) that there’s somewhat a part of me that’s form of excited for all this alteration.
As a result of it’s a possibility to form of reshuffle the playing cards, discover out new stuff, possibly discover some secrets and techniques, and form of reverse engineer what’s happening.
While you take a look at the final simply 10 days the place a number of folks and firms discovered new methods to reverse engineer what queries Gemini makes use of and ChatGPT makes use of, I’m like, man, it’s superior to see how adamant the business works on growing the brand new playbook, dissecting how these mechanics work and LLMs work, and discovering new methods.
So, I’ve excessive confidence, and I even have a whole lot of empathy for all of the ache and the form of issues that this business goes via. However once more, I see us popping out the opposite facet in some unspecified time in the future in like a brand new design – and with a whole lot of impression.
Katie Morton: I find it irresistible. I agree with the empathy as nicely. As a result of everybody in advertising and marketing, it appears, has misplaced their thoughts somewhat bit over the previous 12 months or two with these shifts in site visitors.
However that Wild Wild West surroundings can also be actually thrilling as a result of there are going to be all of those developments.
And if persons are calm they usually persevere they usually do the work to determine these items out, both for themselves or to look at what these researchers are discovering, folks might be okay, proper?
Kevin: We all the time are. Sorry to chop you off there, however there’s a very essential level to make right here that I didn’t make – and that’s: It’s not simply search that’s altering.
website positioning is on the forefront of AI. On the absolute forefront. As a result of it’s about phrases, and it’s about search, and search is form of the largest interface between AI and people proper now.
So it’s not simply search that’s altering. Advertising and marketing is totally altering. And like, all of our lives are utterly altering.
Certain, this may take years to trickle via, possibly not even to the diploma we’ve considered it, nevertheless it’s fairly clear that AI is no less than as revolutionary because the web. Perhaps even essentially the most revolutionary invention that humanity has made to this point.
So let’s not neglect: Every thing is altering. It’s not simply us SEOs. It’s all of the channels. It’s advertising and marketing as an entire.
Modes and levers are disappearing, and new ones are developing. We’re feeling it deeply in website positioning, as being form of the entrance line of AI. However make no mistake, this may trickle via to all of the paid channels, product, all the pieces.
All people is in a state of shock proper now, attempting to determine what the brand new branches are to carry on to after which construct on prime of. Advertising and marketing as we all know it’s over. LLMs are remodeling how they attain us.
Katie: This impacts each channel. At SEJ, we’ve collapsed editorial and advertising and marketing into one built-in staff. It was website positioning and editorial right here, advertising and marketing over there, and nobody actually talked. That doesn’t work anymore.
Now, all the pieces is extra cohesive and centered on the ICP and conversion. It’s higher for patrons and for groups.
Kevin: 100%. I speak to all my purchasers about this. website positioning and paid search ought to’ve all the time been related, however they have been siloed, similar with product, electronic mail, social, and many others.
I imply, look: Realistically and ideally, website positioning and paid (or paid search) have all the time been related on the hip. However I’ll inform you, no less than throughout nearly all the businesses that I’ve labored with, they have been siloed.
The identical exists with all these different groups, like product advertising and marketing or social media, conversion, and electronic mail – all that form of stuff.
Now’s the time to tear off the band-aid. There might be small groups of possibly an website positioning, an editor, an electronic mail particular person, a social particular person, and possibly a really technical one that can shortly prototype new apps, applications, or instruments.
The largest problem now could be inside purple tape. AI is a pace catalyst, however corporations’ outdated workflows gradual them down. Huge organizations are caught.
I’m urging purchasers to kind these multi-disciplinary models below one supervisor, one roof, one mission.
Reaching Individuals In every single place Requires A Daring Shift To Different Platforms
Katie: Superior. One final level: different platforms. For too lengthy, folks relied too closely on Google. Diversifying site visitors sources – adverts, social, newsletters – is now important. Holistic advertising and marketing is the long run. What are you seeing [that is] working proper now?
Usually talking, the place do folks reside today? The place are people hanging out, and the place do we discover them? What are the success metrics that you just’re seeing?
Kevin: The brief reply is: In every single place.
Katie: Good luck, everybody. Okay, good evening. That’s the present!
Kevin: No, however the actuality is, all over the place. There’s this fascinating paradox. I must coin this time period someway, however this fascinating paradox that principally all of the social networks are rising. And new ones are popping up, proper? TikTok – I imply, it’s not that new anymore, nevertheless it’s nonetheless rising. Reddit is changing into far more of a family title now.
And so that you ask your self, what offers? Certain, linear TV’s down, okay. However how is that this potential? And the fact is: Individuals are on-line on a regular basis – talking for a pal – they usually use a whole lot of platforms on the similar time.
So, the perfect groups, or the businesses which can be making a huge impact, they’ve this encompass sound impact that they’re creating, the place they’re current in a whole lot of locations. They have interaction authentically, say, on Reddit.
When good corporations have interaction on Reddit, it doesn’t really feel like advertising and marketing. It’s not advertising and marketing, actually. It’s far more like attempting to be useful, extra like buyer assist or success.
That’s why these persons are typically very well-suited to work together on Reddit. They really add worth. They’re really a part of the dialog.
Manufacturers are repurposing their content material in a really considerate and high-fidelity approach, the place possibly they create a weblog article, flip it right into a video, flip it into clips, which then flip into questions they reply on Reddit. There’s this type of all over the place technique. AI actually helps with that.
And I may even say it’s sometimes not corporations which can be getting caught on the quantification-of-impact query. The truth is that steering a corporation or an organization towards that multi-channel impact – or that encompass sound impact – takes a swing.
It takes a pacesetter to say, “Okay, we’re going to spend some cash and take six months, and we’re going to put money into Reddit and YouTube, and we’re going to attend for the outcomes to come back in. We’re not going to take a seat there day by day refreshing the dashboard asking, ‘What number of gross sales have we generated but?’”
It takes a little bit of a swing. And so it’s defining for this period, for this transition interval, the place it’s a lot tougher to challenge and forecast the place you’re going to land with a few of these issues.
It takes judgment and style and a sure diploma of risk-taking to put money into these channels and capabilities, and being snug, or no less than okay, with ready for a number of the outcomes to come back in and with the ability to measure them later.
I’m not saying it is best to wait a 12 months or two. However give it two quarters, possibly three quarters, and experiment with a few of these channels.
So, that’s the place persons are – persons are all over the place. It’s not sufficient to only have one shot at one platform. You might want to be form of all over the place.
And repurposing can assist. Utilizing AI with a few of these issues helps. However on the finish of the day, it’s essential to take a swing.
Katie: Very clever, Kevin. A type of issues that I discovered extremely annoying is you could run these experiments, and also you’re going to attend in your outcomes, after which earlier than your experiment is even carried out, all the pieces’s modified once more.
Kevin: Precisely. Predictable strategies are gone. You are taking swings, and a few gained’t join as a result of situations change. The perfect leaders, the perfect groups – a whole lot of occasions, they take a whole lot of swings.
As a result of a few of these swings will hit full pressure, and it’s form of a talent to construct.
Katie: Yeah, I couldn’t agree extra. We’ve carried out month-to-month experiments at SEJ. Each division runs one. It may very well be structure, content material sort … fixed iteration. I inform the staff: tender knees. Be able to shift. There’s no “set it and neglect it” anymore.
Kevin: Sure, sure. On level. Permit folks to fail. One other good talent is with the ability to take significant dangers. I’m not saying guess the farm, however as a pacesetter, if you wish to encourage your folks to take dangers, allow them to.
Once more, that doesn’t imply to blindly shoot in all instructions. You need to have some thought behind that, some judgment. You need to be vital. However there must be a degree at which you let go.
Katie: That may be a actually excellent level. We tie experiments to north-star metrics. For us, one is e-newsletter subscriptions, so most of our experiments assist that. We’ve seen nice success, not all the time in uncooked site visitors, however in conversions and income.
Kevin: Wonderful. Congratulations on that.
Katie: Thanks. All proper, Kevin, any parting remarks earlier than we head out?
Kevin: I’m listening to a whole lot of very involved SEOs. Involved about “How do I inform this story?” or “How do I handle my boss or management on this time the place site visitors is down?”
I need to ship out some braveness. This is among the largest shifts I’ve lived via in my life. I might guess it’s in all probability the identical for many, if not all, of the viewers.
So, that is possibly the time to make some modifications and have some grace about discovering a brand new playbook.
I’m seeing a whole lot of SEOs very scared about this. I get the preliminary concern. However once more, that is such a considerable, elementary change. It’s okay for issues to look completely different. It’s okay for you to not have the reply proper now. Be trustworthy with management. Push again if wanted.
Katie: Deal with new metrics, not simply UVs or PVs, however ones that connect with enterprise targets. That’s the place the story of success might be informed.
Kevin: Precisely.
Katie: Thanks once more, Kevin. The place can folks discover you?
Kevin: growthmemo.com, or simply seek for “Progress Memo.” That’s my most important hub.
Katie: Superior. We’re at searchenginejournal.com. See you subsequent time!
Kevin: Thanks for having me.
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Featured Picture: Paulo Bobita/Search Engine Journal
